I think that Bruce's response to distracted drivers has one effect - it portrays motorcyclists in a further negative light.

Don't get me wrong - I'm tired of dodging the cell phone users, makeup appliers, Big Mac eaters and loud music listeners, too, and I agree with Bruce that cell phone conversations while driving should be banned.

On the other side of that coin, I'm tired of getting lumped in with 1%ers on one side and street stunters on the other, just because I choose to ride a motorcycle.

Regarding the nature of this forum, I applaud both NHTSA and MSF both for starting it, and for allowing the opinions of all motorcyclists, however they may differ from those of the two organizations, to be heard regarding our present and future safety.

Disclaimer: I've taken both the MSF BRC and ERC.

"mandated training course, similar to driver's ed, before one can get his or her motorcycle endorsement"

If it were possible I would agree whole heartedly. In Upstate New York people wanting to take rider training have to sign up for Rider Ed inMarch or April. If they wait till riding season they may not get a course till fall or may have to wait till the next year if there aren't enough cancelations. The Rider Ed in New York is contracted to a company (MANYS) to handle setting up rider courses. Requests for courses in our area have been turned down several times.

There has been times where we have had to pass someone using the side of the road to avoid being hit by a driver not looking carefully before changing lanes or turning. Each state should have highway signs that remind drivers to watch for motorcyclists. We don't have load pipes but we have a really loud horn which helps some times.

 

Dan:

Hawkdriver,

I work in vehicle safety, and while our primary focus is automobiles (since that is the vast majority of the vehicles on ....   We just call them crashes, because that's what they are. 

Most of my cases involve some kind of human judgement or perception error. .....

...

In nearly every crash, you cannot say that there was one single cause.  Like in the one I exampled above, there are usually many.  The leading causes in the above crash are: 1) roadway vision obstructions to motorists leaving side roads, 2) inattention by the motorcyclist, 3) fatigue of the motorcyclist.  Every person on the road, whether he or she is in a cage, on a motorcycle, or on a unicycle or rolling in a giant hamster ball is capable of inattention.

It is your duty, as a safe operator, whether you are in a cage or on your bike, to pay full time and attention to the task at hand, safely operating your motor-vehicle, and arriving at your destination in one piece.


 

 

Dan I for one agree with you,though it is easy to "blame" the other driver I also have seen a number of cases where the motorcyclist simply didn't do anything to avoid the crash, did something grossly wrong (such as "laying it down" {deliberately crashing}, and can't accept the fact that their action was a contributing factor to crashing in the first place.

"Most of my cases..."

"I also have seen..."

Unless one of you is God and the other Jesus Christ, these two prefatory remarks signal those who read carefully that what follows may be something less than absolute truth or the conclusions of statistically valid research.

The mission of this forum seems to be to convince the masses that the only people to blame for motorcycle crashes are motorcycle riders.  There are absolutely no valid statistics to support this contention, and what reliable statistics we do have indicate that cagers, and not riders, are the single most likely culprits.  Are riders "contributing factors" in some cases?  Sure!  I'll even concede we are contributing factors in ALL cases.  After all, if we didn't take our motorcycles on the road, there would be no motorcycle crashes or fatalities, right?

If the M$F or whoever wants to sell training courses and protective gear, then more power to'em.  Riders that need it should buy it.  Just don't sell Motorcycle Safety (crash survival) like it's a political cause.  It's not.  It's a commodity.  Of the motorcyclists who are maimed or killed ... more are maimed or killed by the negligence, distraction and inattentional blindness of care-less CAGERS than by anything else...

Motorcycle Awareness (crash prevention) is the true political cause.

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Bruce Arnold

LdrLongDistanceRider.com
Co-Moderator, Bruce-n-Ray's Biker Forum
Premier Member, Iron Butt Association
Sustaining Member, Motorcycle Riders Foundation
Member and Elite Legislative Supporter, American Motorcyclist Association

BruceArnold wrote:

The mission of this forum seems to be to convince the masses that the only people to blame for motorcycle crashes are motorcycle riders.

To the contrary, this forum seems not to have much purpose at all at this point. In fact, compared to other forums I read, it's lame. Apparently MSF and NHTSA are just offering a place for people interested in motorcycle safety to discuss the subject. From what I can see, it's sort of a microcosm of the motoverse with a diversity of opinions. None of which, from what I see, suggest that "the only people to blame for motorcycle crashes are motorcycle riders."

Motorcycle Awareness (crash prevention) is the true political cause.

That may be, but it's only a small part of survival. Motorcycle safety measures can be thought of as working on a range of time scales. At the shortest, which is actually after a crash occurs, is injury prevention. The meager capabilities of helmets, boots, gloves, and leather are better than nothing, but serve only as a last resort.

On the next longest time scale are evasive maneuvers—braking and turning—which MSF teaches quite capably. When impact is just a few seconds away, the skill to control the motorcycle won't just prevent injury, it can prevent the crash.

Somewhat further out, the best safety measure is judgment to stay out of trouble (see signature). Frankly, I don't think MSF or anyone else teaches this effectively. Experience, it seems, is the only way to develop good street sense. After twenty-some years of riding, I'm still learning tricks to identify and avoid potential problems. If judgment can be taught without the risk that goes with street riding, I think a simulator (such as the one some manufacturer was showing off a few months ago) has the most promise.

On a vastly longer time scale is the political strategy of educating the driving population of 200 million people and enacting laws to more severely penalize crashing. But even when this goal is realized, the more immediate safety measures can't be ignored. Because, as they say, stuff happens.

An effective motorcycle safety strategy must incorporate the full spectrum of preventive measures. We need legislative initiatives to improve the riding environment in the long term. But we also must educate riders about the dangers that exist right now and will continue to exist into the near future. It's fine to dream about a day when all drivers are attentive and capable, but I want to survive this week, this month, this year. I'm willing to spend some money and time on political activity to achieve long-term goals, but I'll also be doing everything I can to survive the present.

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A superior rider uses superior judgment to avoid problems that would demand his superior skill.

You demonstrate your superior skills here by weaving from a lead-in paragraph that disses this forum to a concluding paragraph that once again distorts the relative importance of Motorcycle Awareness versus Motorcycle Safety in order to make a sales pitch.  You did knock down a cone along the way, though, when you made the irrational assertion that "Motorcycle Awareness (crash prevention) is only a small part of survival"...

Crash prevention is no part of crash survival!  A crash that has been prevented does not have to be survived.  You can purchase all the Motorcycle Safety training and protective gear in the world, and a care-less cager can still take you out at the next intersection.  And if you want to debate that point further, it is a pity you can't debate it with the motorcycle safety instructor who was killed by a care-less cager earlier this week:

http://www.nbc10.com/news/9998325/detail.html

 

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Bruce Arnold

LdrLongDistanceRider.com
Co-Moderator, Bruce-n-Ray's Biker Forum
Premier Member, Iron Butt Association
Sustaining Member, Motorcycle Riders Foundation
Member and Elite Legislative Supporter, American Motorcyclist Association

A careless cager is a careless cager, no matter if a car or bike is coming.   In my case, had I been in car or truck or sheramn tank, the collision would have still happened.   Now there are motorists who fail to SEE something as small as a motorcycle.  At the point where the motorist makes the wrong decision and pulls in front of bike and a crash is iimminent, what good does "motorcycle awareness" do?   At that point, hopefully the rider has the SKILL set to haelp avoid or at least minimize the risk, injury, damage, etc. to himself.   All the motorcycle awareness classes and legislation in the world can't help at some point.   People make mistakes, they pull in front of a motorcyclist, car, train, semi, etc.   It happens.  legislation in taht case will punish them for their mistake and possibly make them look twice NEXT time, but did nothing to prevent THIS accident. 

 Good riding skills are imperative, and the only way new riders have to speed up the process or even be exposed to it is some sort of training, be it MSF, private (hope it's a qualified instructor), or whatever.  Legislating awareness does nothing but put my survival off on someone else.  

  Why not be responsible for yourself instead of hawking more laws designed to make us a victim of someone else's stupidity.   Driver's Ed does nothing to stop 16-25 yr olds from speeding and being one of the more dangerous age groups, so what will a motorcycle awareness law do?   Help after the fact?  How do you propose we implement this stuff?  Make a law that every driver has to take a course in m/c awareness?  How you gonna enforce that, if you do get it passed?  Whos going to FUND this effort?  Or do you make a law that everyone has to be AWARE of a motorcyclist and if you harm or kill one, you;re going to jail?   how will this help PREVENT crashes?  Hell, murder is already outlawed and people still kill others with guns, knives, hands, etc.  Laws only work for the law abiding.   Inattentive drivers will not change.   Why not get a movement started to make Motorcyclists AWARE of inattentive drivers?  Be PRO active instead of all this REactive stuff that is not going to change much.

 If a rider is cut off in traffic, yet doesn't have an accident, how do you enforce this law?  Oh yeah, you run them down and chastise them, I forgot.  What good does the motorcycle awareness law do for a hurt or dead rider?  Especially in a case where superior skill set might have changed the outcome, instead of hoping the motorcycle awareness law would save their life?

What is your deal with MSF?   Other than the classes are paid for by students?  Why are you so set against this forum and the MSF and NHTSA?    

Motorcycle awareness would be nice, as a courtesy, but making it a law does less than experience and training and skills.   Political Cause?  Good luck with that - hope to see it in 08.

Rando

 

I myself cannot see where anyone is calling for new laws of any kind. I believe the consensus is and has been, just enforce the laws we have, and give stiffer penalties for violating existing laws.

Nothing pisses me off worse than the fact that my life, my family's life, and everyone on here's life is only worth a measly $40 - $100 dollar ticket.

Bottom line, if a driver injures a biker due to negligence, the fine should be high. If they kill a biker due to negligence, they go to jail!

Teach that in motorcycle awareness class, and you have succeded to prevent at least one accident. That one accident prevented may have been your own life that was saved! (Or your wife, or father, mother, sister, brother, or even your child) 

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Doing my part to save a Bikers life!
www.SaveABiker.com

My hope is that NHTSA implents a motorcycle awareness project similar to the United Kingdom's "Think!" campaign.

Televesion spot: http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/campaigns/motorcycles/media/howclose.mpg

Radio spot: http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/campaigns/motorcycles/media/dont.mp3

 

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Joseph Heh
Public Relations Officer
Allegheny County Chapter A.B.A.T.E. of Pa.

This thread has degenerated to drivel.  Rather than continue to irritate the uninformed, I'll bow out.

If you would like to acquaint yourself with (a) the true differences between "Motorcycle Safety" and "Motorcycle Awareness", and (b) what is currently being done to advance the agendas of both sides, I gave you three website references to check out in my first post to this forum.  You might also read Bruce on Bikers Rights:

http://www.ldrlongdistancerider.com/bikers_rights.php

This will be my last post to this forum.  I thank it's sponsors for giving me the opportunity to participate.

Ride Long, Ride Free!

Bruce :-)

 

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Bruce Arnold

LdrLongDistanceRider.com
Co-Moderator, Bruce-n-Ray's Biker Forum
Premier Member, Iron Butt Association
Sustaining Member, Motorcycle Riders Foundation
Member and Elite Legislative Supporter, American Motorcyclist Association

As one of the "uniformed", I will hate to see you go.  As much as your posts have annoyed me, I have rather enjoyed the debate.  

I do not, however, see how making motorcycle awareness into a political cause helps a rider.  yes it would be nice to know that killing, maiming, or otherwise injuring ANY OTHER motorist would be worth more than a lousy driving citation.  But preventing the accidents rests on EVERYONE"s shoulders.   The motorcyclist, the driver, everyone.   People make mistakes.   They could surely do a better job of driving.   All of us, me, you, everyone.

Good luck with your campaign and your methods.   Hope to see you back sometime.

Rando

I have a question.  I am new here to this forum.  I have read through this debate with interest. I see that it has been a passionate one. 
I personally took a MSF course.  Here's my question...

What data or studies or proof exist that shows that a rider who completes a MSF course is less likely to either crash or die on a motorcycle  vs. one who has not?

It seems logical to assume that this is true, however I would like to know what scientific studies exist that support that hypothesis? One person in my MSF class already died in a single-motorcycle crash.  Makes me wonder.

Thanks

Chiledog,

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Only a biker knows why a dog hangs his head out the window.

Chiledog,

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Only a biker knows why a dog hangs his head out the window.

Hmmm... computer messing with me today.... we shall have to have a conversation later.

 Chiledog,

 I think that this forum is actually part of that information that you are asking about.  The bad part of all of this is that there is much information which has NOT been collected.  Is there solid proof that you are less likely to crash because of a course?  Maybe yes, maybe no... that's why we are here.

The purpose here is to accumulate enough data to actually start making these conclusions.  Is there a right answer?  Probably not.  Each person is different, each rider is different and so is each crash. 

Stick around, add your two cents (or more) and lets all figure it out together.

 

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Only a biker knows why a dog hangs his head out the window.