Vstar,

Thanks for the clarification. Now I understand better the purpose of this forum.  Opinions can be dangerous when not backed up by fact.    It seems to me that there are some sort of politically divided discussions here (just an observation) vs. a discussion of the facts and data.  I think it would be helpful to examine the facts of the matter objectively.  Perhaps those facts are too difficult to get to, amid a myriad of information, or the matter just hasn't been studied in any way that is helpful or that people can agree on?  I am not sure here, I am just making observations.  I think we are all in this together, it seems to me that we would all be in favor of safety and doing the right thing, understanding the right things, to get to the point of a real improvement in safety for all of us. 

Just an observation....

chiledog:

What data or studies or proof exist that shows that a rider who completes a MSF course is less likely to either crash or die on a motorcycle  vs. one who has not?

It seems logical to assume that this is true, however I would like to know what scientific studies exist that support that hypothesis? One person in my MSF class already died in a single-motorcycle crash.  Makes me wonder.

Here's what an instructor wrote in another forum about a fatal crash that took one of his students, a 19-year-old on a race-prepped CBR1000RR, last week:

We spent a lot of time with this kid over the course of the weekend, trying to help him see that maybe he should re-evaluate his purchase [of the racebike], to LISTEN to what we were trying to teach. In the end, he passed the course, but apparently he learned NOTHING.

Last night (yes, in the dark), while headed to his girlfriend's house on a race bike with no lights, no signals, and wearing no gear (except a helmet), he ran a stop sign at a high rate of speed. Hit a minivan broadside so hard it nearly flipped. Hit so hard it split his helmet, and exploded his heart.

Passed the MSF on Sunday 10/8/2006, dead on Thursday 10/12/2006.

The evidence that rider training "works" in the most general sense is shaky at best. I'll try to post something about that soon. But interpretation of the inconclusive evidence is sometimes very wrong. It isn’t that the skills taught are ineffective, but that some trained riders have no intention of using them.

If you want to ride a motorcycle safely, you must learn how to brake and how to steer, and you must develop a sense of the dangers posed by the road and by your fellow motorists (to mention a few key lessons). An MSF class will teach you those skills and, if you use them, make you a safer rider.

But what if a rider isn't particularly worried about riding safely? Given a choice of a) crashing or b) not crashing, he'll go with b), but safety is a lower priority than popping madd wheeliez on his 1000RR in front of 'Bucks or seeing how many tequila shooters he can do on a Sunday afternoon poker run. How much benefit will training impart to a rider like that? Not much.

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A superior rider uses superior judgment to avoid problems that would demand his superior skill.

DataDan,

That is a truly sad story, but I think it really exemplies the whole problem.  The training is good, and if you ride safely, you stand a better chance of surviving.  Is that going to stop a car from hitting you?  NO!  But you do learn some skills that might just help keep you alive.  BUT ONLY IF YOU USE THEM!!

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Only a biker knows why a dog hangs his head out the window.

Training may halp but without an CHANGE in ATTITUDE by the rider all the training in the world goes in one ear and out the other.

I hear California just enacted a "must use hands free device" for cell phones like some other States.

This may or may not help. I saw some study on TV that showed even people with hands free devices are distracted and more dangerous when driving and talking and not paying attention.

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Norman Gregory Fernandez, Esq.
Biker and Motorcycle Lawyer Blog
www.bikerlawblog.com

I did want to say something to everyone on the forum. One of purposes of the NAMS project is so that we bikers, and even outsiders, can engage in a dialogue about making riding your motorcycle safer because of the carnage that is going on out there right now.

Obviously there is no way everyone is going to agree with everything all of the time. Matter of fact something would be wrong if everyone agreed with everything all of the time.

No one should be worried about being flamed here. Speak your mind. I would like to hear everyone's opinions. The only thing I would recommend is that when you speak your mind, do it the same way you would speak it face to face, or want to be spoken to fact to face. With respect for the other guys opinion.

Everything I have read here is all good. Some guys are passionate about the cager awareness issues; some guys are passionate about enforcing the existing laws issue; some guys are passionate about the biker training issue, etc.

Look what this dialogue has done. It has brought out a basic outline for increasing motorcycle safety which is the whole purpose of the NAMS project.

If any of your are familiar with Google Alerts, you should create an alert for motorcycle accidents and motorcycle safety. You will see for yourself the carnage that is occurring on a daily basis. Most of the accidents are the fault of the cagers. Some accidents are the fault of the bikers making mistakes. The only way that NAMS will be successful is if everyone speaks their mind without worrying about being flamed.

We all bring our own personal experiences to the table here. I look foward to hearing more from everyone.

 

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Norman Gregory Fernandez, Esq.
Biker and Motorcycle Lawyer Blog
www.bikerlawblog.com

I recently wrote a riding-tip article on distracted drivers for a net forum, and in the course of my research I talked to police officers and read their training literature on impaired drivers. 

 

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